This is the transcript from the special online workshop live from HRD 2001, on the topic of self-managed learning.

Demo User Hi

George Edwards Greetings from HRD 20001 at Olympia. The place, as they say, is jumping. I've been conned (invited) to run this little workshop for you all. If you want to seer earlier messages, hit the Transcript link below this screen. As I wander around the show here, I am reminded, not for the first time, of the huge changes that have taken place since 1990, when the then "Training and Development" standards were launched, Today, the word on the street is "learning". Rumour has it that the rewritten standards, version 3 for the cognoscenti, will be L for learning standards. (I always thought L was for Leather ...). Remember, to see earlier messages, click the transcript link below.

George Edwards Anyone there??????? Hello Andrea. Name, rank and number please?

Andrea Newton Nosey self-employed trainer !

George Edwards Glad to have you aboard.

Andrea Newton Are you feeling lonely ?

George Edwards Lifeblood of the industry! It is a bit lonely here, yes.

George Edwards The topic of the day was to be "Training and Learning - Who gets what”. I was at the D*ee the other month, and was delighted to find that they had opted for a self managed "Learning" route for their managers and leaders. "Training" is definitely downplayed - time constraints, over structuring, not so cost effective. If D*ee are going that way.....

Andrea Newton Sorry - phone call ! Did I miss anything ?

George Edwards Hi Andrea. Connection go down?

Andrea Newton So what can you tell me then ? Expectations and realities ?

George Edwards I was just rabbiting on about the culture shift - employers expect their people to LEARN, not just to absorb TRAINING anymore.

Andrea Newton Hello Demo User !

George Edwards Hi demo user. That's an odd name.

George Edwards Actually Andrea, do you guys emphasise the L more than the T thing these days.

Demo User Hi folks. I've just been collared by Stephanie and here I am!

Andrea Newton Very much so - in fact, I'm more concerned with the L than the T and really keen on introducing new "techniques" if you like, to make sure the L is real.

George Edwards Well, the expectation is that like a lot of David Blunkett’s dreams, everyone is going to become a self managed learner. Rose tinted specs?

Andrea Newton That's all very well and good - but where does Joe Average start ?

Demo User The cultural shift to self-development and self-learning is hot in my company at present. How would you suggest we encourage the new culture?

George Edwards Our survey data suggests most sub-managerials will still rely on employer provided training. Well I would say this, but there needs to be a success reward system in place.

Andrea Newton In my experience, managers are the worst to encourage them to consider any form of L, T, whatever you call it. They know it all, you see.

George Edwards Mmmmm - Of course, MANAGERS do know it all. But new managers don't. We are living through a demographic shift now.

Andrea Newton And if they don't, it's someone else’s fault anyway !

George Edwards Success reward systems of course include job enrichment.

Andrea Newton Those new to management are great to work with as they appreciate the need for L and skills development, but more experienced tend to think they've got this far without any formal L or T so obviously no need.

George Edwards And good old McGregor's theory Y.

Demo User Off round the exhibition now. See you next week!

Andrea Newton What ! Is that another Rose Tinted effect ?

George Edwards If you think managers have a problem, go talk to the IOD!!!!!

Andrea Newton I can imagine.

George Edwards There is a similar problem with family SMEs. WHO knows it all - WE do!

Andrea Newton I worked for many years in the transport industry, and if you could drive a truck, you were the ideal candidate to manage a fleet of vehicles and drivers.

George Edwards That’s Buggins turn, or the Peter Principle!

Demo User Hi - Stephanie here!

Andrea Newton Buggins ?

Andrea Newton Hi Stephanie.

Demo User Hi Andrea - hope you're enjoying the session!

Andrea Newton Getting a private workshop !

Demo User Indeed!

George Edwards Buggins was the notorious South Wales counsellor who ended up as mayor, although totally incompetent, because it was Buggins’ turn.

George Edwards Back to the theme please.

Andrea Newton Ah, the Welsh ! George, what does this culture of self-managed learning mean to me then as a solo flyer offering my wares to orgs. ?

Demo User Good question!

George Edwards Like most offereers, you actually learn by doing. As indeed do the rest of us, listen to the gripe sessions at the pub. The real problem is finding mechanisms to convert life /work experiences to learning.

Demo User People don't always recognise that , though, do they?

George Edwards Nope! The more structured the reflective learning aids, the less they like them.

Demo User It's difficult for some to recognise that their company isn't going to do all the 'developing' for them...

Andrea Newton …and unless you can get them in a "training room" it's not training, so it can't be learning…

George Edwards Its not difficult, its a shock. People leave…

Demo User Of course!

George Edwards So back to the old"don't train ‘em or they'll get poached" idiom.

Demo User But they're going to have to get used to not being sent on a course in future...

George Edwards A virtual course A ropes Course. Heh heh!

Andrea Newton Says who? Some companies still need to wake up to the idea of training, let alone self-managed learning !

George Edwards Scary or what. Supposed to be fun. Learning?

Demo User You're right there!

Demo User back to the old learning versus training again.

George Edwards Actually, Ropes make a good metaphor. If we could get the metaphors working properly, the learning might follow. Kabuki sticks…well, it doesn't stick ....

Demo User Sorry?!

Andrea Newton Yes, but what I meant was, there are a hell of a lot of companies who don't even invest in any sort of staff development, call it training or learning.

George Edwards Sticks. Like Pooh sticks, but longer. It’s a good metaphor for control - useful for learning.

Andrea Newton Preferred Theory X!

Demo User Andrea - agree totally!

George Edwards Theory Andrea? The new word is model! Or paradigm shift…

Andrea Newton Oh I'm sorry ! Models make me think Airfix!

George Edwards Age showing…

Demo User And they might be inclined to use it as an excuse not to invest at all - 'it's all down to you now'.

Andrea Newton Absolutely !

George Edwards You can't provide the opportunity without the investment. Actually, it’s the time that costs!

George Edwards Tim??

Demo User He's gone off to give a talk for the show!

George Edwards I'm going for a record here.

Andrea Newton Even with online learning, I've heard so much about - yeah, it's great, but I need access to PC etc and can't find time when I can concentrate on that

George Edwards SME syndrome.

Andrea Newton Not just SME George.

Demo User Agree with Andrea.

George Edwards How long before all post L3 users have access?

Demo User It can be quite depressing - to what extent will people engage in learning for themselves if they're not encouraged to do so?

George Edwards I was with B*tl*ns the other month, and they have thousands of PCs, And thousands of managers, and the managers are not allowed near the PCs.

George Edwards Bribery?

Andrea Newton In my experience, very little, unless it is a subject that really fires them up, they enjoy and can see some PERSONAL gain.

Andrea Newton WIIFM ?

George Edwards WIIFM?

Andrea Newton What's in it for me.

Demo User Ah right!

George Edwards ;-)

Demo User You got George there!

George Edwards LOL

Andrea Newton Touche for Buggin

Andrea Newton Anyway, where can I learn more about learning - self managed or otherwise ?

Demo User Andrea - try the site for starters - put a question into Any Answers.

Demo User I might try and follow it up with a feature. If there's interest...

Andrea Newton Anyway, have a great day - keep learning !!

Demo User Likewise - see you soon here again I hope!

Andrea Newton If I can get in !!

Demo User Hopefully we'll get a few more takers next time!

Demo User OK - going now, bye and thanks for coming.