I've been notified of a few people joining in. Does someone want to start the ball rolling. Suggest a topic or questions?
Did you have any specific agenda planned for this Tim?
I've not specific agenda. I want to promote ideas, questions, learning
What sort of issues are you facing as a trainer?
Hi Malcolm - welcome - just join in!
Looking forward to it
I am waiting on Florence Grant coming into the office at 12.00 to do this training with yourself. Would it be possible to wait till them for Florence to come back in.
I'm just changing to a different browser. back in a minute!
One practical thing that keeps coming up is what to do while just sitting around waiting for someone to put up their hand while their doing an exercise or while a collegue is delivering a module?
Ok back up again
So where shall be start - questions and issues you've got?
One practical thing that keeps coming up is what to do while just sitting around waiting for someone to put up their hand while their doing an exercise or while a collegue is delivering a module?
I know the feeling Warren. You're nervous but don't want to get over-involved.
I also find it adds to the general stress of the day
Do you feel the need to be doing something - or can you relax and let the group get on with it?
when I'm presenting I'm fine it is all the sitting around waiting feeling anxious that gets to me
My preference is to try and stay away. If I 'hover' people turn to me - when I want THEM to do the work.
when their doing an exercise I think I'm on call, I have to be ready if they put up their hand at any point in time
A good way to monitor this is to listen to the noise volume: if they're chatting away, you don;t need to do anything
I tend to go to the back so i can see several screens, if they need me they just ened to turn round
Florence has the same feelings waiting to do the seminars. The other part is trying to get the feedback from the members
If you have groups working in different rooms, you can move from one room to another - or llisten outside - that way they have to do the work themselves
Hi James
hi james#
Hi all
Being too available may not allow groups to find their own solutions
Warren, Florence - is it really your nervousness which is the issue, or the group's lack of confidence?
I agree Malcolm - I call it the 'hover' syndrome - it gets in the way
I would say both my nervousness and the groups not knowing what to expect
neither for me, it's more the being involved when I'm not actually doing anything
or at least when I don't know if I should be doing something specific
I think it's very important that group members should know exactly what to expect. You can say "I'm going to leave you for 20 minutes to get on with this - but please find me if there's a probllem.
Personally i find that some of the most successful courses are when i let people get on with it for themselves
Interesting, what we do at the moment is say, "this will take 30 minutes, just put up your hand if you're having problems".
Hello Lucy
Welcome Lucy - do just join in
hello lucy
hi all
So, what other issues are causing difficulty?
hi all I'm finally in now
Facilitating chats?
Hi
Say a bit more Malcolm
One person's reaction is opposite the rest.
I'm with malcolm, one thing we'll be doing here soon is facillitating sessions like this, which will be very new to me, so any advice?
From a writing point of view the course I run at the moment needs a better introduction and close. Many don't do the last exercise, they just leave, I feel we need a closing talk.
we're grappling with the skills of online facilitation for a new workshop we'll be running in Dec
hi henry
Hi Henry
Hi Henry
Hi folks. So what's the big issue being discussed here?
whats that on malcolm?
Couple of issues then: coping with divergent views in a live group, and managing chat in online events
what are the differences and similarities between live group facilitation and online?
The on line facilitation has intervals. The live group has a faster reaction time.
Some issues are the same - how skilled/tactful are people; how well do they encourage others to participate.
one difference is not being able to see people (obviously), how do we encourage people to participate
Absolutely.
Our 5-day workshop is on facilitating learning and we aim to spend 2 days on using collaborative learning environments
I think the PROCESSES are similar - people must feel welcome, valued, respected, listened to
The reactions in a live group are more disserable in body language that is missing on line
you have to be much more careful with language online as there is no tone of voice
another question: how do you control the verbose on-line?
I agree with Tim on processes. Also people learn by doing, being involved. Effective clsassroom IT training is based on asking lots of questions. How do we translate this to onbline?
Body language (or absence is a definite loss in electronic learning forums
The opportunity to offend accidentally is very great on line. Sarcasm is taken literally!
Trainers should never use sarcasm - offline or online
participants too
How do we establish 'safeguards' and 'groundrules' for online learning?
The same as live - we ask.
I think on line we tend to avoid saying the groundrules as they would take so long to type
True
some chat room outline the groundrules automatically when you enter, don't know how mind...
Interesting
Thanks James - I must follow that one up for TrainingZone
how many people here do online training?
In a face-to-face event, it's much easier to challenge rule breaks. Online, you can't 'delete' someone from the caht!
Is there a feedback system which allows individuals to communicate with other individuals in the chat roomwithout showing the message to all - this could be used for feedback
i certainly will be warren - we're working on it at the moment
I do not do online training at the moment, but look forward to it in the future.
depends on the chat room I guess Malcolm
does anyone know the name of a chat system which allows this?
I don't know a system Malcolm, but we could post a question on the site
good idea, Tim
Drop me an email afterwards
for those of us who are committed to a chat room - how do we give feedback on a more individual level?
What techniques do you use to encourage greater participation in online learning?
I think you need more than just a chat room, email etc
questions, questions and questions
hi lucy
Hello again Lucy
hi
In live situations, you ask the person directly. On line, Can't you do the same? direct thde question?!
Hi again lucy
i see no reason why not florence, not so easy to pick up on why if they don't answer though, and they not at the machine, or are they really stuck
true. It's harder to understand why and cope
hi sheyman
Do you find the same issues cropping up around 'resistant' learners in online situations
trrue, often it is worth making the feedback public as it can apply to others
Hello James I am new to this so I am trying to follow what the discussion is about.
What about confidentiality issues?
i would say that resistant learners would be less common, or why would they bother to log in
confidentiality can only really be done with e mail i guess
Curiosity!
It's much harder to have a quiet work - or one-to-one coach with someone in a public online forum
Hi sheyman we are really talking about the differences between online and in person training
perhaps email is a better communication tool for that.
How does this online work though? Are we talking about using chat rooms like a classroom or as a place to come with questions & problems?
One of the problems I've seen in chats is that the time-lag between a question and an answer usaually means that another question gets asked in the meantime. This can be confusing and lead to a lack of focus. Any ideas, folks?
Tim, what would you say the biggest thing most trainers need to work on?
Currently the discussion has been classroom-chatroom
i agree (i'll leave it to you to guess what i'm agreeing to malcolm)
Hi Joy
hi joy
hi joy
Hi joy
Malcolm, I find it really helpful to put someone's name at the front of a reply to their question - to overcome problem of late display - like this!!
Hi all
Hello
Can you do classroom-like training in a chat room? You're not going to lead say 6 people through a particular feature. You can't get the feedback to check its worked.
Tim, thanks for the idea
I agree with Henry.
For classroom-style online, you need a product like NetTutor which displays all screens to the trainer - and the trainer to the studetns.
You also don't have the visual cues, I'm standing up and I'm going to talk you through something for 5 minutes.
Henry, can each person give feedback at the end of session?
you may not be able to show particular features, but more conceptual topics would work
Henry - I think best use of chat rooms is to do Q and A on specific topics - not general teaching or instruction
What you're doing here infact.
Tim, the online is more of a tutorial than theory lecture.
I agree with last two points
I think online training puts far more onus on the learner
Time, it makes them think and type at the same time.
and motivation
The online learner really must be motivated (or an anorak -:) )
Time reflective style persons would have a hard time with online chat.
Good point
Tim - how do you prepare for facciltating something like this, do you have a set of questions to ask beforehand, or is it more on the fly
is online learning effective? or is it like CD-based where you give loads out and only a tiny % do it?
James - there is little point in preparing much for this - the thread follows people's interests within broad parameters
Henry I think I'm learning today so it must be some form of info exchange
yes
One great advantage of online is that it exposes you to DIFFERENT people - one's you've never seen before
tim - what do you do then when conversation dries up
Tim, That is very true.
Thanks Tim, Bye all
bye warren
Bye Warren
Flo. Interesting point. Works well for discussion based stuff. I'm an IT trainer, trying to work out how it fits.
James - I follow my normal rule for tutor-led training - go to the opposite i.e. change topic, do somethings different, change the format
tim - are people different, or do you find a very specific sort of person takes part in online learning
I think a forward looking person participates - a computer literate person too
James, I find there's huge reluctance / resistence to online learning at present - it's the fear of the news
What do we do with backward looking people?
whoops new not news
Hi Garry
Hello
garry, what do you train?
Hi Garry
florence - are we not missing an awful lot of people and missing a lot of opionions if these are the only people that take part
hi garry
Backward looking people is my earlier question about coping with resistant learners
But no learner is really resistant. We are all naturally joyful zestful leanrers
I work for Woodland Grange in Leamington Sp and i am the Lead Tutor on the Certificate in Training Practice and Diploma in Trining Mangement
garry, are you doing that online. Sounds interesting
Offering live sessions as an alternative sometimes works with those not up to online
Not sure I agree with you on that Henry. When doing Training for Trainers, we sometimes have a session called "working with plankers"
whoops - for plankers, read plonkers!
No the CTP and DTM are offered as open attended programmes here at the Centre
tim... these people are our living
tim - how many years have you been training?
Tim, I think we need to look at your attitude. Did you have an early bad experience we need to talk about?
Learning is everywhere but focused learning on a partiular topic is more difficult
hi peter
Hi Peter
Er.... hands up ... I'm not really that rude - but the issue is still there: how do we as trainers work with all the people we encounter in the job?
Hi Pete - (he's a friend of mine)
Tim I handle them as I find them. Where they are
It's important to work with people to identify what's getting in the way
hi tim, sorry late, Java?
Pete - Java displays less well on your Mac
tim - agreed - but it must be harder to identify someones experience and needs when you can't talk face to face
I think in terms of working with difficult participants you have to mke a sequenced set of decisions. 1. Is the problem theirs or yours? 2. In the time and spce avilable can I work on this issue? 3. Can the issue be affectively ignored if it can't be addressed during the training.
That's very helpful Garry
garry - if you are the trainer i would say the problem is always yours
Yes Garry very helpful. I think I'll print and use that.
James, I completely agree
I'm currently on a C&G course and we are taught about different learning styles and methods of and methods of delivery is this
what you are talking about
Does online learning suit some learning styles better than others
James, I don't agree. If the problem is they were sent and have a cold, that is not within your control.
garry - just realised, i don't mean you've got a problem, i mean the trainer of whatever course, just shows how easily this can read differenct than it would sound
Pete, we're talking about working with less keen participants
No, the problem may affect me and I might have to react to the problem but I wont take ownership or responsibility for it.
surely the point about on line learning is that it is about the trainees motivation - If someone is 'resistant' they simply won't be there. I hear only 22.6 % of people complete their online course
florence - i would say as the trainer you need to try and make them glad they were sent, and i really don't think a cold will be a huge problem on any course :.)
Trainers should take total responsibility. The moment you find an excuse not to, is the slippery slope to blaming the delegates.
Good point Lucy. One of the reasons for high drop out online is the absence of meaningful support
so does online work? Interesting piece in IT Training on how Honeywell got completion rates for DC based training from 0% to 85% by getting people to start it in a classroom with a trainer.
tim - so how is meaningful support achieved online?
still picking the threds up - you mean people who are less inclined to become involved in the learning process
Sorry, CD based not DC based
Lucy - I think online learning still needs an element of human contact. Look at the Open University experience - distance learning plus human contact
Lucy I agree with Tim. A real person has to back up the on line
speaking as an OU student, its certainly nice to know there's someone you can phone or email with questions
Taking responsibility for every problem and every issue is not for me. Drawing attention to an issue and trying to help someone who wnts to be helped is fine, but state that 'Trainers should take total responsibility. ' places the trainer in an impossible situation and in an awful poisition of dominnt power.
I'm still intrigued by earlier discussion: how much responsibility should trainers take?
Garry, its a basic customer service principle. Go to any organisation practising real customer service and you will find it.
garry - i don't think its an impossible situation, there's always a solution, and i'm not sure i understand the relationship between responsibility adn dominance
I agree Garry. I try to encourage trainers to look at power issues - they must transfer that power to the learner.
No you don't. Yuo will find people nd orgnistions who are prepared to support and help but they will certainly not take responsibility for every issue or problem. If that was the case i would never have to lift a finger again.
There are always 101 possible excuses why a training course didn't go well. But there are also 101 possible ways the trainer could have made it better - if they take full responsibility.
Garry, Aren't we there to enpower them to learn? We are responsible for enpowerment
flo - agreed
flo absolutely
Well put Flo
Empowerment is a process of transfering responsibility - from trainer to group / individual
I have no problems about empowering, helping and supporting I just can't and wont sign up to the idea that trainers have resoponsibility for all problems.
Does anyone else use the phrase "you can take a horse (learner) to water but you can't make them drink (learn)?
I don't know about all problems. But responsibility for delegates achieving the course objectives whatever might get in the way.
gary - what would you not be prepared to be responsible for in your training room?
Tim, You're being naughty again.
Tim Doesn't empowerment also entail meeting the needs of the learners? We are then responsible for susing out their needs.
tim - but you can make them want to learn
The role of the trainer is not just to show them the materials, it is to motivate,m to ecxcite to get them so they are jsut dying to drink
I like the last two points - I'll need to re-think my phrase
tim - i appreciate your flexibility - there are far too many "I'm right cos i'm running this" style trainers out there
That's the point on responsibility. We are not just people who present material. The role of the trainer is tocreate a hugely supportive and motivating environment that people just love to learn in.
good point henry ...if we were just responsible for providing material none of us would be having any trouble with online learning
I agree Henry. So many people are put off fresh learning because of past bad experiences of tutors.
Henry Have you ever used Learning to Learn packs along with info materials for training?
Supposing a participant is verbally abusive or racist during a training session. I would take responsibility for either getting a retraction, discussing where these beliefs have come from or if the problem perpetuated sending the candidate away. That would be my responsibility but I wouldn?t say I was responsible for the racism.
Flo, tell me more, what are these?
If we are concerned with empowering people how come the trainer has to take the responsibility it?s shared isn?t it?
Because if they don't learn we haven't succeeded in empowering them
garry - no you don't take responsibility for the racism, of course not, but by doing something about it you ARE taking responsibility for sorting it out
gary the trainer is responsible for creating an environment in which that can happen
Henry the Learing to Learn packs are from ARKS Adult Returner Key Skills - prepared for Europe.
Lucy I agree
Folks, we lose the use of this Chat Room in a couple of minutes - any last points?
When I get together with trainers from outside my company, there is so often dismissive talk of this delegate or that delegate and the stupid things they do. That is not taking responsibility. And is there any way such a trainer would give a great course?
Tim Thank you for your time and facilitating.
Tim, its been great fun. Great to 'meet' you all
what have people learnt from using the on-line process?
thanks tim, its been really interesting actually - wasn't expecting to stay for an hour but time flew
But the original statement was the trainer is responsible for everything in training - he or she isn?t. And if we are empowering people then action and involvement is received from shared responsibility, nut just that of the trainers,
Henry email please and I'll give you more on ARKS
I'll post the transcript of this workshop in the Reports area lower on this page
[email protected]
So Garry what is the role of the trainer?
We're planning regular workshops. See Schedule below. If you want to offer to run one - any topic, your choice of time, just let me know by email
its not as easy as talking, but i could grow to like it - i miust be unique in attending/teaching courses where eveeryone wants to attend
My answer Henry is that the trainer's role is to create the right environment for effective learning to occur
TIm Here Here
The role of trainer can be multifacted but being responsible for every action, outcome and result is not possible.
As with ending all events - thanks for your contributions and see you again soon.
Bye Tim
is that it, it's over - I was just getting into my stride!
bye y'all
What's the subject for tomorrow/