My favorite quote: "Nearly 24 people were injured during a self-help seminar led by Tony Robbins in which they were required to walk across 24 eight-foot lanes of burning coals. Though some of the participants disregarded the pain, saying it was part of the experience, others reported second- and third-degree burns. One participant, who said the experience “transformed people’s lives in a single night,” theorized that those whose feet were burned “were out of state,” suggesting they had the wrong attitude."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/23/us/nearly-two-dozen-injured-at-tony-robbins-seminar.html?_r=1&hp
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2012/07/23/several-burn-feet-at-seminar.html#comments
36 Responses
easy to be cynical
Hey! These people could have spent their days eating burgers, shopping, sitting in front of the TV, smoking fags and drinking booze – or alternatively doing something that could have a profound impact on their lives. They made a choice.
People die every year in the pursuit of happiness and self fulfilment (skiers and climbers being avalanched, base jumpers getting blown into cliffs, road bikers going off the road etc etc etc). Every year people die through obesity, heart disease and basically giving up on themselves through eating too much and moving too little.
Let us not judge these firewalkers but admire them for at least striving to improve their lives – whether we agree with the means (and Tony Robbins) or not.
Mark
Offer Declined
“Hey! These people could have spent their days eating burgers, shopping, sitting in front of the TV, smoking fags and drinking booze – or alternatively doing something that could have a profound impact on their lives. They made a choice.”
That’s some judgment you’re making about these attendees and you are implying I’m cynical?
“People die every year in the pursuit of happiness and self fulfilment (skiers and climbers being avalanched, base jumpers getting blown into cliffs, road bikers going off the road etc etc etc). Every year people die through obesity, heart disease and basically giving up on themselves through eating too much and moving too little.”
Yes, indeed they do, though quite what this observation has got to do with a developmental exercise run by Tony Robbins which has proved detrimental and injurious to some people is unclear.
“Let us not judge these firewalkers but admire them for at least striving to improve their lives – whether we agree with the means (and Tony Robbins) or not.”
I’ll decline this offer Mark, because frankly I prefer to apply my critical faculties to any situation and circumstances that I find ridiculous or disturbing rather than rely on an emotional response. But I fully respect your position to respond in any way you like to this posting.
oh dear
Hi Gary
Without wishing to respond to your rather patronizing response let me suggest that development and personal growth is entirely personal and individualistic. You may think fire walking to be ridiculous but for some it may be life changing or may just shift the needle a little or perhaps is just a distraction from the humdrum of a boring life. Have you done it? Can you comment from experience? Truly applying your critical faculties would involve meeting Tony Robbins, attending a seminar and participating in a firewalk, rather than commenting on 2 rather ‘thin’ news articles. What are you basing your comments on?
Back to my previous comments, my point (skiing, base jumping etc) was that people take many different paths to develop, to grow, to self actualize, to become something more than they currently are. Often this involves risk. In my organization we talk about stretch assignments. We know that when we stretch people we may stretch them too far. This may result in much more that burnt feet. If you are thousands of miles away from home (being relocated to Shanghai for instance), having relocated your family and you are really struggling to achieve what you were sent there to. do, it is not something the local fire brigade (see the news items linked by Gary) will fix for you.
This isn’t an emotional response Gary, it’s a human response. One that respects the desire to move forward, to become something more. Even if it involves firewalking and Tony Robbins.
So when did you last do something that really stretched you and involved some real risk?
and yes I have have firewalked…..but more importantly I think, I respect the right of all individuals to make choices about what might be useful developmental experiences for them – without being judgmental.
Oh Yes
By ‘patronising’ I presume you mean my failure to fall in line and agree with you? And then expressing that opinion here? What I think is patronising is when I read statements like this; ‘personal growth is entirely personal and individualistic’. No shit Sherlock, that’s really patronising.
However, facts are facts regardless of who you are or what your development path is. Fire walking across a bed of smouldering coals and not feeling pain is not any act of ‘mind over matter’, or indeed having your ‘head in the right state’. It is a simple aspect of physics, see:
http://www.skepdic.com/firewalk.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewalking
So, it’s like taking a ball in your hand extending your arm and then letting it drop and believing that this is an act of development. It’s physics, the absence of pain is nothing to do with focussing your mind. What is absurd and ridiculous is that people buy into this at a cost apparently of between $600 and $2000 and then get injured for their troubles.
I do not see how walking on a bed of glowing coals, (always at night, it looks more dramatic) is related to, linked with or the equivalent of relocating your family to Shanghai. That analogy is bizarre.
People can make any choice they like about their development. But I reserve the right to express a view about those choices and communicate those opinions here, regardless of whether it cuts across somebodies business model, here or else where. That’s part of the purpose of this forum and has been for the last 10+ years I’ve been a member of it. As far as respecting something I don’t respect, once again I decline that request.
When did I last do something stretching? That would be the week before last, working in Mauritius leading a three day seminar on my own to a total of 75 managers on how to get work based results from training and development. Fire walking did not play a part.
P.S. There are 2, two, that’s 2 r’s in Garry.
Belief
I spend a lot of my weekends doing "scarey" stuff just to "see what happens" Money well spent and if the stretch is right it absolutely has an effect on my day to day wellbeing.
Never tried fire walking myself but can completely see how stepping on burning coals could transform some people lives so the cost is sort of irrelevant? You can spend £600 getting your car serviced.
It all boils down to opening up to new possibilities?
Lewis Caroll – Alice in Wonderland
Reality
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away.” ― Philip K. Dick, I Hope I Shall Arrive Soon
Alive
"You never feel more alive then when you are about to die"
Steve Robson
TrainingZone
Dead
‘You’re never more dead than when you’re dead.’
Garry Platt
some people
I note with interest that some people chose to spend money phoning up the clairvoyant channel
Huh
Clarevoyancy nothing whatsoever to do with doing dangerous things to self discover.
Priceless
Wow, these guys must have completely and totally discovered themselves.
Nessy
Like I said earlier. You have to believe it to see it Mr Dempsey.
Development
And this mother must surely have been trained in this approach to aid in the development of her son.
Stretch or Shrink
The Australian lad doesn’t look too happy so I don’t think this is quite what I had in mind when I said scarey stuff!
However…if you are scared of hights a Leap of faith could be just the thing to make you realise you are capable of doing more in your everyday life?
http://www.nlp-now.co.uk/comfort_stretch_panic_2.htm
Sink or Swim
I imagine this person has discovered things about herself she never knew.
I love the quote ‘The faulty cord has know been replaced!’ – I hope so.
Controlled Environment
If you do "scarey stuff" in an uncontrolled environment and are unaware of the personal growth aims of the activity you are totally missing the point of the "walking on coals" activity which is how this thread started…
It’s nothing to do with burning coal and ALL to do with being aware of your current weaknesses and doing something to overcome them…
The "burning coal" could be replaced with "calling your mum who you haven’t spoken to for 10 years" or "swimming in open water"…
Surely its not "that" hard to see what’s going on Mr Dempsey?
Seen Film
I’ve seen the film Loch Ness and I also saw the monster, dreadful film.
How can I say this
"I’ve seen the film Loch Ness and I also saw the monster, dreadful film"
Not sure how to break this to you but I don’t think there is a monster in Loch Ness. I thought it was a great film btw
So…glad we cleared that up.
Doing scarey stuff is a valid way to overcome fears real in real life and aid in personal growth and self development. It doesn’t "have" to be walking on hot coals but it could be.
Warning!! Doing scarey stuff could result in injury.
…………..End…………….
Facts & Evidence
When there are some longitudinal studies validating this form of activity then I might view this type of intervention as having some legitimacy. Until that time don’t waste your breath trying to convert me. I need facts and evidence* to be influenced.
*By evidence I do not mean unverified stories, an exposition of personal beliefs or anecdotes. This is not data that I or anyone with more than two working brain cells are prepared to accept as legitimate.
Evidence
………Not the end………….
"Until that time don’t waste your breath trying to convert me"
Huh?? I really don’t care what you believe and would never try and convert you or anyone else to believe anything?
The fact that you said your latest "stretch" was delivering a course in Mauritius clearly shows you don’t quite understand the concept of "danger" being used in personal growth.
Next time you go try diving with sharks and you will be closer to the "stretch" I am referring to.
……..Possibly the end……………
Risk, Not Danger
I FULLY understand the concept of danger Steve, at least the dictionary definition. The question that Mark originally asked was: "So when did you last do something that really stretched you and involved some real risk?"
You seem to have equated risk with physical danger and potential injury, I don’t.
For me the most recent thing that was both stretching and risky was this job in Mauritius and the challenges that presented. But really, when did you become the judge of what was dangerous or risky for me? When did that happen? Do you know the details of the job? What was involved? What I had to do? The backgound? The situation? The circumstances? No, you don’t.
But your observations on my personal development aside, none of this changes my view of the argument being advanced here. When there are some longitudinal studies validating this form of activity that show that these types of interventions are anything other than temporary then I might change my view.
Danger
dangerous :
Doesnt sound like a course I have ever run but maybe mauritious or your courses are different
So…
Garry…you were the one who started this. Although you didn’t say it, the implication was that you think these people are foolhardy and wasting their time money? Forgive me if I’m wrong but just re read and seems pretty clear to me what your views are on this.
Having never met these people Garry, when did you become judge and juror of people you have never met? When did that happen Garry? When did you decide your view of the World is more valid than the 2000 people who paid up to $2000 to do this?
Dangerous
My observations are and always have been about the validity of this kind of intervention. When did I become the judge and juror on this? When I looked for evidence that these LGAT events have any long term real affects for the majority of participants. And is there any verifiable proof outside of story and anecdote that fire walking has any significant development affects? The answer in short is; no, there is none.
My judgement is about the validity of this process. There is no evidence that it works, no proof of results, no facts to confirm, just hype and hyperbole.
Dangerous Activities
Dangerous and Challenging activities have been used in Therapy for many years. Stepping on coals is the "showbiz" side of this and makes money for many facillitators but the principle is the same.
If you want to be really pedantic I will spend another 5 minutes on Google and find you a reference thet specifically states walking on coals.
http://www.therapytoday.net/article/show/1833/
2. Walton RA. Therapeutic camping with inpatient adolescents: a modality for training interpersonal cognitive problem-solving skills. Unpublished doctoral dissertation. St Louis, MO: Saint Louis University; 1985.
3. Pommier JH. Experiential adventure therapy plus family training: Outward Bound School’s efficacy with status offenders. Unpublished doctoral dissertation. Texas: A & M University; 1994.
4. Hughes J. The effects of adventure-based counselling on sensation seeking and self-efficacy of chemical dependant makes. Unpublished doctoral dissertation. Mississippi: Mississippi State University; 1993.
5. Reddrop S. Outdoor programs for young offenders in detention: an overview. Tasmania: National Clearing House for Youth Studies; 1997.
6. Donnison P. Images of outdoor management development. A synthesis in the literature and participants’ experiences on outdoor courses. PhD Thesis. Lancaster: Lancaster University; 2000.
7. Pretty J, Griffin M, Sellens M, Pretty C. Green exercise: complementary roles of nature, exercise and diet in physical and emotional well-being and implications for public health policy. Centre for Environment and Society Occasional Paper. University of Essex; March 2003.
8. Gass MA. (ed) Adventure therapy: therapeutic applications of adventure programming. Boulder, CO: Association for Experiential Education; 1993. 9. Cole E, Erdman E, Rothblum ED. (eds) Wilderness therapy for women: the power of adventure. New York: Harrington Park Press; 1994.
10. Davis-Berman J, Berman DS. Wilderness therapy: foundations, theory and research. Dubuque, IA: Kendall/Hunt Publishing; 1994.
11. Rennie DL. Person-centred counselling: an experiential approach. London: Sage; 1998.
12. Cumes D. Inner passages. Outer journeys. Wilderness, healing and the discovery of self. Minnesota: Llewellyn Publications; 1998.
13. Nadler RS. Therapeutic process of change. In: Gass MA. (ed) Adventure therapy: therapeutic applications of adventure programming. Boulder, CO: Association for Experiential Education; 1993.
14. Richards K, Peel J, Smith B, Owen V. Adventure therapy and eating disorders. A feminist approach to research and practice. Ambleside: Brathay; 2001.
15. Gass MA. Enhancing metaphor development in adventure therapy programs. Journal of Experiential Education. 1991; 14(2):6-13.
16. Mearns D, Cooper M. Working at relational depth in counselling and psychotherapy. London: Sage; 2005.
17. Voight A, McCromick B, Ewert A. Therapeutic outdoor programming: connections between adventure and therapy. In: Richards K with Smith B. (eds) Therapy within adventure. Augsburg: Zeil; 2003.
18. Ringer M, Gillis L. Managing psychological depth in adventure programming. The Journal of Experiential Education. 1995; 18(1).
19. Gilsdorf R. Gestalt and adventure therapy: parallels and perspectives. In: Itin C. (ed) Exploring the boundaries of adventure therapy: international perspectives. Proceedings of the 1st International Adventure Therapy Conference, Perth, Australia. Boulder, CO: Association for Experiential Education; 1998.
20. Peters L. From adventure to therapy: some necessary conditions to enhance the therapeutic outcomes of adventure programming. In: Richards K with Smith B. (eds) Therapy within adventure. Augsburg: Zeil; 2003.
21. Stolz P. Stories of change. In: Itin CM. (ed) Exploring the boundaries of adventure therapy: international perspectives. Proceedings of the 1st International Adventure Therapy Conference, Perth, Australia. Boulder, CO: Association for Experiential Education; 1998.
great discussion
Vulnerable
"marketed to the vulnerable as hard evidence to back up some spurious claims I can’t help being sceptical"
Vulnerable is a big assumption…example please? A glass half full type person might say he is marketing to the empowered?
Whilst we are on about hard evidence
Is it the location of the therapy (outdoors, in the wild) or is it simply the therapist themselves that makes this sort of therapy effective? The article you posted doesn’t really given me any hard evidence to answers the questions in this discussion.
As for hard evidence regarding my comment on Tony Robbins is simply my view
Whilst we are on about hard evidence
Is it the location of the therapy (outdoors, in the wild) or is it simply the therapist themselves that makes this sort of therapy effective? The article you posted doesn’t really given me any hard evidence to answers the questions in this discussion.
As for hard evidence regarding my comment on Tony Robbins is simply my view
Activty Based Development
No Steve, these all relate to adventure based therapy or outdoor development, not LGAT’s and firewalking et al. I did my Masters on Outdoor and Activity Based Development (ABD) and they are chalk and cheese. And indeed my assessment of many Activity / Outdoor Development events was grim to say the least.
The first three major findings were:
1. ABMD which consisted of activities where the experience was not de briefed or reviewed effectively rarely if ever made any impression or long term changes to the behaviours or actions of the people participating.
2. ABMD that consisted of activities often received good reaction level evaluation results but resulted in few if any actual changes in work place behaviour or results.
3. ABMD and the exercises that took place on it were generally remembered longer and for the majority of people was more memorable than other forms of development.
This issue was discussed at length back in 2006 here: https://www.trainingzone.co.uk/item/154088
When there are some longitudinal studies validating this form of activity then I might view this type of intervention as having some legitimacy. Until that time don’t waste your breath trying to convert me. I need facts and evidence* to be influenced.
*By evidence I do not mean unverified stories, an exposition of personal beliefs or anecdotes. This is not data that I or anyone with more than two working brain cells are prepared to accept as legitimate.
Evidence
Garry, Jamie
Whilst this discussion has amused me today let me be clear about a few things…
1) I put myself in some sort of danger regularly through outdoor activities because it makes me fee alive and I believe helps me confront any challenges I face in my professional and personal life.
2) I don’t give a flying fig if there is any evidence or not to support my claim. The fact it works for me and I enjoy it is evidence enough (for me)
……Surely the end……………..
Thanks
Thanks for your input Steve.
I do give a flying fig and when there are some longitudinal studies validating this form of activity then I might view this type of intervention as having some legitimacy. Until that time don’t waste your breath trying to convert me. I need facts and evidence* to be influenced.
*By evidence I do not mean unverified stories, an exposition of personal beliefs or anecdotes. This is not data that I or anyone with more than two working brain cells are prepared to accept as legitimate.
Groan
Until that time don’t waste your breath trying to convert me. I need facts and evidence* to be influenced.
Groan…trying to convert you…definetely not…wasting my time discussing this…probably…enjoy jumping around in canyons and think it makes me a better person…absolutely without question…am I going to stop because Garry thinks its not doing me any good…I’ll leave you to decide.
…..The end………..
PS: Would I try the walking on coals?? Of course, sounds like an amazing experience.
……..Now its the end……..
Groan II
Enjoy jumping around in canyons and think it makes me a better person? No
Am I going start because Steve thinks it’s good for me? No
Would I try walking on coals? No, sounds bloody stupid.
The end
Why is ……the end……… not …the end………?
Because Garry like to have the last word!
…..The end………..
Correct
Correct, at least on this issue.
Too much time
Some people have too much time ontheir hands!