Is it any wonder that training in this country is the first area that business seek to cut back in hard times?
After all, some of the ‘initiatives’ that our brethren come up with at these times beggars belief. DEFRA (the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) recently spent half a million pounds on a series of one-day conferences around the country to allow staff to meet senior directors. During this day time was allocated to bongo drumming courtesy of a ‘motivational facilitator’.
Let me provide some quotes from the Telegraph article on this debacle: "One vet, who expected the day to be dominated by issues such as the bovine TB outbreak which saw tens of thousands of cattle put down last year and has led to plans to cull badgers, said it had been wasted 'mucking about'.
'Farmers are under stress, cattle are being slaughtered, sick badgers are suffering enormously and the disease is spreading to domestic animals, and what are we doing – banging drums,' she said. The management does not realise that every day is vital when you're tackling a disease.
I cannot comprehend why we were taken away from our jobs for this.'
"A spokesman for Animal Health said that the drumming sessions had been part of a series of about 15 away days held around England, Scotland and Wales over a period of about four weeks which finished last month. 'It was meant to emphasise how people working together can build up a rhythm,' he said.
"Nick Herbert, the Shadow Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Secretary, said: 'It is incredible that when the nation's budget deficit is soaring and British farming faces a serious animal health challenge in bovine TB, the Government thinks it is necessary to teach its vets how to play bongo drums.'"
I am incredulous.
For further details of this debacle read here:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5hD8vfcDczdKYbhebkV27dzanZwzQ
Garry Platt
20 Responses
sorry Garry, you are just wrong!
Mr Platt
You are not “incredulous”;
…I’ve read your witty and insightful (or do I mean inciteful?) articles and you sure are not one to be unable to believe the utter lunacy that exists in this world.
rus
The question?
I have read your posting and am still looking for the question you’re asking – this being the Any Answers? section!
Sharing
Dear Nicola
You are of course absolutely right that this is called the Any Answers forum but TrainingZone members quite often post interesting snippets of information that they’ve found here that they think will interest the community.
We are more than happy with this, and hope that in the future – when the site is redesigned – that we will be able to offer you more opportunities to do this.
Our thanks to Garry Platt for spotting this incredible story & drawing it to our attention.
Kind regards
Susie Finch
Editor, feature
A time and a place….
I’m not here to defend that particular initiative, though that activity in that context seems tactless to say the least. But I would make 2 points: whenever I’ve read anything in the papers where I’ve had inside knowledge, they’ve got something wrong.
Secondly, I have used drumming as part of a conference before, with a large group of IT managers up to director level – not people to be lightly convinced about any kind of touchy-feely activity at the best of times! However, in 45 mins or whatever, you can demonstrate some valuable teamwork and communication points in a memorable way.
Peter Dunn
http://www.authentic-dev.co.uk
Time & Place
Hello Peter, I suspect Bongo Drumming might be very memorable; it does seem to have been for some members of this group for all the wrong reasons though. But I wonder;
“in 45 mins or whatever, you can demonstrate some valuable teamwork and communication points in a memorable way”
I suspect you can demonstrate a lot of things in 45 minutes. What’s important in my opinion though is can people relate to it and does it result in changes in work place behaviour and feed into the bottom line?
Whether Bongo Drumming has any place in Management Development should be judged against what it achieves, what changes proceed from it and is it the most efficient means of achieving the intended outcome? The fact that something is memorable means very little. Smashing a hammer down onto your own hand is I suspect memorable and might be framed to show how being careful is important. I don’t think as a developmental strategy it is all that effective however and my guess is it wouldn’t result in behavioural changes in the workplace, other than not being able to use that hand for quite some time.
Hey, I know what we could do…!
With another group, this might have gone down a storm. Hence the need to do one’s homework.
Someone, somewhere had a eureka moment. No doubt they were passionate and enthusiastic. All very laudable. I have come up with some equally off the wall ideas in my time – that’s what brainstorming sessions are for.
Then they waved their hands around a lot and persuaded he-who-signs-the-cheque that this would be a Good Thing.
It seems, though that, once again, the learner was left out of the equation. No-one thought to do an audience analysis, to consult with a focus group.
And a bunch of intelligent, hard-working people were left feeling disempowered and patronised… not to mention that their time had been wasted.
Horses for courses
Garry, when was the last time you did a level 3 on 1 activity within a 2 day event? 😉
As for ‘not resulting in behavioural changes’, I was in subsequent management meetings where the activity was cited as aspirational in terms of what a large team can achieve. Did that argument influence the decisions that the mgt teams were making? Who knows.
Overall, I do take your point, also well-made by Karyn. She (I think) and I are saying don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Climate
For me the issue is still: ‘Whether Bongo Drumming has any place in Management Development should be judged against what it achieves, what changes proceed from it and is it the most efficient means of achieving the intended outcome?’
Without answers to this, its just drumming.
Further reading around this nonesense can be found here:
http://www.thisiswesternmorningnews.co.uk/news/TB-vets-given-bongo-lessons/article-872970-detail/article.html
And another quote from a participant:
‘The day, in my experience, was of absolutely no use. Time spent in attending (and attendance was compulsory) would have been, for me, better spent working at the pile of stuff that I had lined up to deal with by way of actual work. The final straw was the “now collect a drum” stage, at which time voting was done with feet by some (well at least one!), and a quick march back to work and some sort of sanity, leaving behind likely unfounded observations of “not a team player” and other such tosh. And, as for the “A spokesman said” quote towards the end of your article, we were informed by the presenter, at the very start of the day, during the introduction, that the day was “not about, and nothing to do with, motivation”! So now it seems it was (as if we didn’t know). Management double talk at it’s worst – not even subliminal! Over all, little interest, even less involvement, and no fun. A day of internal navel gazing nonsense. I feel a parliamentary question or two coming on. Pass me my whistle! Dreyfus Zola, The South West’
P.S. I have become allergic to the ‘baby and bath water’ analogy for reasons Karyn will only be too familiar with.
Babies, bathwater and bongos
I don’t think my previous comment had anything to do with babies and bathwater, Garry will be relieved to hear.
Much as I would enjoy a go on the bongos myself (I’m African, sue me!), much as I promote the idea of learning experiences that are fun… even I would have to question their relevance as a learning experience in this situation.
What I am saying is that this strikes me as another example of the learners’ needs and interests are not taken into consideration. Clearly no needs analysis was done here. Somebody had a ‘bright’ idea and it was visited upon the hapless attendees without so much as a by your leave.
And as for ‘compulsory’ attendance. Well, I am gobsmacked. I wish I could be sure that the
perpetratorsorganisers were reading this, because there is one point that seems to escape the notice of so many people working in training/L&D, so I am going to say it loudly and clearly:WE ARE DEALING WITH GROWN-UPS, HERE, NOT CHILDREN!
Write it down.
Sorry, I don’t usually resort to sarcasm, but this is one of my biggest soapbox issues. We educate our kids all the way through school to take increasing responsibility for their own studies, their own learning. We send them to university, where we give them carte blanche: attend, don’t attend, pass, fail – it’s all up to you.
Then we get them into the workplace and we completely disempower them in respect of their learning, again. What’s up with that?
The questions emerge…
The questions in this debate seem to be:
– what does drumming achieve?
– what changes proceed from it?
– what can be achieved in 45 minutes?
I have both taken part and observed short drumming sessions as part of a leadership course, and both times have been deeply impressed at the instant co-operation that is required of everyone. One has no choice but to be co-operative. Why is this so powerful and effective?
In terms of building team relations and fostering a cohesive attitude, some people just simply have never experienced this or know how to go about behaving this way. No amount of psychometic testing, role-play, discussion groups or other cerebral method can equal actually DOING the behaviour.
Within minutes of taking part in (a well placed correctly pitched) drum circle, a person learns what the sensation of co-operation feels like and for some people this is a eureka moment even if it is on an unconscious level (all the more powerful).
When one is back in the workplace that becomes a new resource on which can be drawn.
I do not agree with using drumming for the sake of frivolous fun and raising energy when it’s inappropriate.
Finally, I question that the drums were actually bongos and suspect they were djembes. I am not being pedantic merely highlighting how the media distorts the facts for the sake a more catchy sounding word, and no doubt they have chosen to speak to the most disgruntled participant.
This article alone is not enough to support the debate on training cut backs in hard times.
New Resource?
“Within minutes of taking part in (a well placed correctly pitched) drum circle, a person learns what the sensation of co-operation feels like and for some people this is a eureka moment even if it is on an unconscious level (all the more powerful).
When one is back in the workplace that becomes a new resource on which can be drawn.”
What is the resource that drumming equips people with that specifically impacts on workplace behaviour in this context? The description is currently ambiguous. What are the specific changes that it feeds into? And what is a ‘eureka’ moment at the unconscious level?
compulsory = wrong?
“And as for ‘compulsory’ attendance. Well, I am gobsmacked. I wish I could be sure that the organisers were reading this, because there is one point that seems to escape the notice of so many people working in training/L&D, so I am going to say it loudly and clearly:
WE ARE DEALING WITH GROWN-UPS, HERE, NOT CHILDREN!”
…………………….
Sorry, but there are many occasions when “training” HAS to be compulsory;
~would you accept being arrested by an untrained police officer?
~would you want an untrained pilot flying your plane?
~would you want an untrained mechanic doing the MOT on your car?
~would you want an untrained vet operating on your pet? or deciding to destroy your entire herd/livelihood?
I think not….
enough members of this forum belong to professional institutions which enforce compulsory CPD on their members and we generally think of this as a “good thing”; it maintains a level of professional competence.
(All this is notwithstanding that the event concerned appears to have been billed as a “conference” where the main objective was “to allow staff to meet senior directors”, rather than a training event at all.)
We are all familier with the skill development model which starts with “unconscious incompetence”; sometimes people will have to be made to attend a training session in order to open their eyes to what they don’t know. Certainly I am sure we have all have run a number of events over the years where individual delegates have been negative to the point of almost walking out, but have come to us at the end of the day and said something along the lines of “I expected this to be a complete waste of bl**y time, but it has actually benn bl**y useful” I know this has happened to me almost monthly over 20 years!
I’m not defending the djembe# drumming on this occasion but speaking in general terms.
(#as regards the media distorting facts, let’s face it 99% of the population of this country know what a bongo drum is, what proportion know what a djembe drum is? the media still refer to divers as “frogmen”…it is the use of the vernacular, no more)
Rus
(PS yes, we are dealing with grown ups; grown ups with mortgages and families who otherwise, if attendance was voluntary, might feel that to take a day “off” work (as was clearly the view of the disgruntled individual) would be to admit that they had time to spare…..agian in my 20 years experience the general view is that, when times are tough, do everything you can to show how damn busy you are, otherwise they’ll downsize/rightsize/outplace/slim/rift/trim/rationalise/ reduce/layoff/pre-retire you. They might even make you redundant!)
Continued…
The eureka moment (working with the translation “I have found”) is simply that, the mind has ‘found’ what it was looking for, the moment the penny drops, or one feels a sense of recognition about something.
Some of the abilities that are developed being listening, paying attention to others (while taking part), observing others (when not taking part), working WITH the group as opposed to dominating or holding back.
These four skills can be applied directly to any team work situation. A skilled faciitator will draw this out and enable the group to know the relevance.
Again, by actually DOING the behaviour do we know the sensation and can more easily repeat it. Imagine trying to learn to swim by reading about it, or discussing it; we must have a go.
Interesting
Thanks for this response Nicola – I see the line of reasoning.
I am not certain I agree with some of the claims. I do not understand how the processes of listening to colleagues hitting a drum in a training room will directly translate into active listening back in the workplace? I see the two skills as being both significantly and contextually wholly different other than at the physiological level. I am also challenged by the assertion that by paying attention to one another in a drumming session leads to paying attention to one another back in the workplace. Many people know how to ‘pay attention’ and can do it if required; I doubt however that practising paying attention during drumming leads to the adoption of that behaviour over anything than short periods if at all.
If adoption and utilisation of these behaviours on a significant level is achieved by doing it for a period of 45 minutes during a drumming session I would be surprised. I would really need evidence other than anecdote that this is a legitimate and working strategy to achieve these goals and long terms behavioural changes. I would also question whether beating a drum in time and in conjunction with others leads to a recognition of their own strengths and weaknesses in individuals who are too competitive or too dominant.
If it works for you Nicola, good luck with it.
Apples and oranges
@Rus The examples you give have to do with accreditation to practice – part of the formal learning that goes with being licenced to practise in a certain field. That is a completely different issue from workplace learning, and I think it only serves to muddy the waters of this conversation to raise it here.
Getting back to the ongoing workplace learning debate, I think it is high time we stopped assuming that people have to beaten over the head to do their day jobs. I posted about a related matter recently. Please read the post and let me have your comments on it (it would probably better for that conversation to happen on my blog rather than here), but to lift possibly the most inflammatory sections from it:
“Stated crassly, if you have a load of freeloading ingrates on your staff, it’s probably your own fault….” and “why did you recruit these goof off artists? If an organisation is staffed by people who have to be treated like naughty children with all sorts of bars and blocks, surely the recruitment process is flawed? Do we or do we not employ adults? Do they or do they not want to be here? Are they or are they not delivering results? Do they or do they not often work overtime, staying late to get a project finished?”
is it really “completely different”
“The examples you give have to do with accreditation to practice – part of the formal learning that goes with being licenced to practise in a certain field. That is a completely different issue from workplace learning”
………………………
but is it really “completely different”?
Does not the training (formal or workplace) given to any working adult aim to raise a level of competence that then “licences” that person to “practice” in their chosen field. In the latter part of my comment I referred to workshops that I have run regularly in such “workplace” subjects as “Performance Management” and “Recruitment Interviewing”; does a level of competence in these subjects not provide/improve a managers “licence” to “practice” in the field of management?
Rus
AKA Muddy Waters
Take part
Gary
The sense of co-operation and cohesion that participants get from the drum circle becomes a desired one, a thought of “I’d like to work that way, be that way, feel that way in my job”, and so a seeking mechanism begins. Yes it’s subtle, but the seed is sown.
You also mention only being affected at the physiological level – I do not underestimate the deep effect physiological changes can have on behaviours and thoughts, in fact it can be a quicker route to change than talking and thinking about it.
I have never taken part in a sailing event but I’m told it’s great for team building and working on communication issues – but how can I know until I’ve actually taken part?
For me, the learning is in the doing, do the action then discuss the experience and draw on it.
Taking Apart
“The sense of co-operation and cohesion that participants get from the drum circle becomes a desired one, a thought of “I’d like to work that way, be that way, feel that way in my job”, and so a seeking mechanism begins. Yes it’s subtle, but the seed is sown.”
Many people get a sense of cohesion and co-operation when playing many sports, but I have encountered no significant correlation indicating increased work place team working because of that experience. Do you know of any research I can look at or case studies which illustrate what you are claiming?
“You also mention only being affected at the physiological level – I do not underestimate the deep effect physiological changes can have on behaviours and thoughts, in fact it can be a quicker route to change than talking and thinking about it.”
It also possible I suspect to overestimate the physiological impacts, especially when those experiences are framed in one particular situation and the physiology is unique and totally different to the workplace. Banging a drum in time with your mates is not the same as ensuring the invoicing gets done on time. One experience in one context does not equate to changed behaviour in another, and that immediate and direct linkage is implied here as reliable and significant, though I believe it is overplayed.
“I have never taken part in a sailing event but I’m told it’s great for team building and working on communication issues – but how can I know until I’ve actually taken part?”
I’ve actually experienced drumming, it was an experiential weekend run by the Elan Centre in Manchester and I have also gone sailing with the now defunct Cornelyn Manor in Anglesey.
At the reaction level both experiences were engaging, pleasant and positive. Neither however had any impact in workplace behaviour. I suspect that the experience and effects of this form of development might be strongly influenced by cultural and value issues which the participants have and in the DEFRA context it seems to have significantly failed for some people.
Appropriateness
“Banging a drum in time with your mates is not the same as ensuring the invoicing gets done on time”.
I agree, and that is why the DEFRA session seems to have failed, it probably wasn’t placed correctly or given any context or faciliitated well enough (making assumptions based on a newspaper article makes me feel slightly uneasy!).
“Neither however had any impact in workplace behaviour.”
How do you know this? People cannot separate themselves into partitions, they operate as a whole being, yes, some characteristics may be more dominant in certain situations, but nevertheless, we operate as a whole. An experience, by definition, changes a person.
“I suspect that the experience and effects of this form of development might be strongly influenced by cultural and value issues”
Yes indeed we are all driven by our personal values, so it’s back to appropriate use of an activity.
“Do you know of any research I can look at or case studies which illustrate what you are claiming?”
Not to hand, but I will ask a couple of people I know and trust on this matter.
Inappropriateness
‘”Neither however had any impact in workplace behaviour.”
How do you know this? People cannot separate themselves into partitions, they operate as a whole being, yes, some characteristics may be more dominant in certain situations, but nevertheless, we operate as a whole. An experience, by definition, changes a person.’
How do I know this? – Well as I stated I am the person who attended the training. And I am aware of whether I adapted or changed my behaviour on my return – I didn’t.
I don’t understand your next comment Nicola. You begin by stating that we cannot partition ourselves? And that we operate as a whole. And that by definition experience changes a person. I don’t think the former is necessarily linked with latter. And whose definition are we talking about? Change in my dictionary means ‘To cause to be different, to transform and to undergo an alteration.’
An experience using this definition therefore cannot always be said to achieve change. It might simply reinforce belief and behaviour with no resulting change. The experience might be rejected and consequently, rightly or wrongly, ignored or denied, once again resulting in no change. The experience might be forgotten or go unrecognised as such and again no change result.
Without clear unambiguous objectives for any form of training and without clear evaluation strategies to track impact and results and without a clear establishment for whether the methods chosen are the most efficient, appropriate, effective and cheapest, this and any other kind of training (not just bongo drumming) will simply be the ‘bullshit du jour’.
The story of Nero playing while Rome burned was just that, a story. DEFRA appears to have taken it as sound strategic advice and had Bongo drumming sessions while the bovine TB epidemic rages.