This is the transcript from the TrainingZONE online workshop led by Michael MallowsMichael Mallows on Tuesday 17 October 2000 on the topic of New Leadership Paradigms.

Stephanie Phillips: Hi Michael. Our workshop host will be here shortly.

Paul D: Good afternoon

Stephanie Phillips: Hi all. Our workshop host will be here shortly.

Michael Holland: Hello Stephanie, I'm Michael Holland. I'm T&D manager for a development INGO in Nepal. I'm currently trying to develop a strategy on Leadership development for my organisation..

Stephanie Phillips: Hi Michael - hopefully Michael will have some suggestions to help. Do others want to introduce themselves?

Paul D: Hi I am Paul Duxbury I am an E-Coach with Academee interested in how this operates and for some insights into Leadership

Lesley Tully: Hi - I'm Lesley Tully - this is my first experience of this type of learning - waiting with anticipation

Don Williams: Don, Freelance IT Trainer but first time on chat and a bit nervous!

Mike Lancaster: Hi, I am Mike Lancaster - Commercial Inventory Manager for Computacenter Services - Looking to develop new strategic initiatives within the IT services sector.

Stephanie Phillips: Thanks all - hopefully it will be of interest.

Michael Mallows: Greetings, I'm looking forward to a stimulating exchange.

Michael Mallows: Michael Mallows

Stephanie Phillips: Hi Michael - thanks for agreeing to host this session. Everyone has done a short introduction, you can see these by clicking on the transcript.

Lesley Tully: High Michael - we met about 12 -14 years ago - looking forward to some of your insights.

Michael Mallows: For those who have not (yet) read my accompanying article (or have not (yet) noticed the ?subtle? (?) acronym), I believe that people with LEADERSHIP skills or potential will possess or attain the following qualities and attributes:

Michael Mallows: Listening Energising Assertiveness Delegation

Michael Mallows: Hi Lesley

Michael Holland: Hello Michael. Can you say a little more about listening, please?

David Jaques: I'm interested in the way we can model leadership skills in the way we lead training groups

Michael Mallows: Michael, Listening, at its best, requires 'wide band' and low band processing

David Jaques: The above (on modelling) was from David Jaques

Michael Mallows: Wide band includes paying attention to the silences, the sighs, the frowns, smiles, gestures, breathing patters, etc - I mean patterns

Pam Corrigan: Hi Michael, I'm working on NLP at the moment. I'd like to know how logical levels have an effect on leadership

Lesley Tully: I think breathing patters is good too!

Michael Mallows: David J (hi), yes, I think we act as role models when leading groups - do it well, and...

Michael Holland: How can we help people develop these attributes?

Steve Gorton: Logical levels - the key issue is for leaders to have worked up to a purpose/mission and as a result achieve alignment and congruence

Michael Mallows: Pam, I use them at the beginning of a (training) session, without necessarily labeling them at that point, to explore on which levels things are going well, and on which they could go better.

Lesley Tully: By using them ourselves - listening and observing what we do - how do we listen? How do others react? What works well when we listen?

Steve Gorton: Steve Gorton - comment about LL's mine

Michael Mallows: And Steve's points add to that

Michael Mallows: What works well (on / for whom?) It also depends on our reasons / motives/ desired outcomes from listening. Do we want to know, to discover, to uncover, to reveal, to argue, to convince, to validate...Good listeners ask at least thrice as many questions as 'bad' listeners. And, it's remembering the statistic which claims less than 10% of the spoken communication is the meaning of the words. More than 40% the way we say them, are NON verbal

Steve Gorton: so something about presence - coming from the non verbal

Lesley Tully: its more difficult with those who have fewer facial expressions, and body movements

Michael Mallows: Visually oriented people may notice far more of the non-verbal, Sound oriented people (Auditories) may notice tome, pitch, volume,

Michael Mallows: Lesley, not necessarily more difficult, it may simply require better listening skills

Mike Lancaster: Surely the level of questioning is dependent on situation/person and could be perceived as indecisive or unsure if there are too many.

Michael Mallows: i.e. to pay attention differently

Michael Mallows: : Mike L - too many for whom? However, many of the questions need not be articulated, e.g. we may need to ask ourselves, in the listening mode...

Lesley Tully: Isn't it also about pacing the questions, listening to the response and then expanding and exploring further

Michael Mallows: A good example may be, when something said seems not to make sense "What would need to be true for THAT to make sense?"

Steve Gorton: Qualities of leaders cf. managers - higher chunk modelling -for me something about the more holistic/systemic approach rather than functional silo of a manager

Michael Mallows: Lesley, yes, I think that is about pacing, rapport building, sensory acuity...

Lesley Tully: Steve G, can you say some more about what you mean please?

Michael Mallows: : SG, I agree, however, there is also pacing people at the more mundane level - respecting their beliefs an values, and the ensuing terminology

Steve Gorton: Where we look at management cf. leadership competencies - key areas about setting direction, strategic thinking which are an underpinning ethos

Lesley Tully: Respecting other's beliefs and values is a big key for me - it helps me to suspend and (when I'm really tuned in) by pass any pre-judgements of them

Michael Mallows: If we ask questions of people on, say, the level of behaviour, not so much for the information we may gather (useful though that may be) but so that the questionee discovers more about the system, the holism of his beliefs, values and behaviours, they may understand how they influence ethos

Michael Mallows: : Hi Pam

Lesley Tully: Michael - can you give me an example please?

Steve Gorton: These areas differentiate in my experience - and link to earlier comment of what I term the "intangibles" of logical levels - i.e. Values & beliefs, identity and purpose

Michael Mallows: Lesley, OK, say you are always late. I may ask you why? What are you going to do about it? Do you want to suffer the consequences. etc (banal) but if I ask questions that enable you to see the bigger picture, to understand how your tardiness impacts on others, and how I / we might help you too meet your needs so that your contribution is.

Lesley Tully: Thanks! got it - just readjusting to the terminology - I'm a bit rusty

Michael Mallows: More available, then you might MIGHT be motivated to contribute punctuality. The point being NOT the fact that you are late, not even that others may suffer thereby, but that we are in an explorative dialogue. How can we use this at more strategic levels?

Lesley Tully: So it's about the What's in it for them principle

Michael Mallows: And the skillful, non blaming questioning may encourage you to 'follow' toward win/win - what's in it for US!

Steve Gorton: Thoughts - leadership by its nature is strategic - otherwise high level management (see Kotter et al )

Michael Mallows: : SG, I agree with you, without some form of strategy that leads toward making a vision (dream) real, what price leadership?

Michael Mallows: : Hi Hugh

Hugh Todd: Hi, just got here!

Steve Gorton: So for leaders who want their team/organisation to be more effective, they first needs to be more effective with themselves

Michael Holland: So the questions we ask and how we listen to the answers can make an large impact on the strategies we may develop?

Michael Mallows: I have a question, I think there is one thing, above all others, that enables us to identify real leaders...

Michael Mallows: : Michael H - yes, along with the shared visions that Leaders help to co-create

Michael Mallows: Oh, the question is...what is that one 'thing'

Steve Gorton: Thus something about knowing self at deep level - is about 4 qualities (in my coaching practice) - i.e. authenticity, self expression, value creation (through others) and determining own aligned with organisation, purpose, vision and values

Michael Mallows: SG - I think that Logical Levels can enable and encourage us to align those qualities

Mike Lancaster: I think a natural leader has real belief in everything they attempt.

Steve Gorton: More ideas in Dilts - visionary leadership skills -

Hugh Todd: Could the 'one thing' be that real leaders have followers?

Steve Gorton:.......and Mike L's comment is for me about what generates that belief

Michael Mallows: Mike, or confidence to know they handle their mistakes!

Don Williams: MikeL came close to what I was thinking - Ambition and determination?

Michael Holland: I see vision as important. Do they know where they're leading?

Michael Mallows: Hugh, yes, although I would add to that - the followers WANT to follow!

Mike Lancaster: Being able to adapt to every situation without losing focus (big picture bit)

Lesley Tully: Managing your mistakes and not being afraid to ask for help

Michael Mallows: Lesley, absolutely!

Michael Mallows: Michael, perhaps it isn't always necessary to know the final destination, because the journey itself may one of endless adventure and discover

Steve Gorton: ..and that adapting to situation relies on something independent of vision (where we want to be at a certain point in time) - i.e. purpose/mission (why we exist - or do what we do)

Michael Mallows: or is that a destination?

Lesley Tully: There are many styles of leaders and so its also about understanding how different styles fit different situations

Steve Gorton: The purpose carries through adversity - and thus keep us on track

Michael Mallows: Also, to know whether to Direct / Coach / Support / Delegate (Transformational Leadership)

Mike Lancaster: Many leadership styles being applied by oneself as per the situation

Steve Gorton: Lesley's comment - different styles - at time right to be autocratic and directive - e.g. in a crisis situation

Lesley Tully: But we must always be prepared to review our purpose - is it appropriate now - will we win the battle but loose the war?

Steve Gorton: Though know when to flex style

Lesley Tully: Steve - does that bring us back to Listening and Observing?

Steve Gorton: Lesley's comment - re purpose - in NLP terms - our core purpose is not going to change - our vision might - hence important to be clear about the difference

Michael Mallows: It is also the case that leaders will adapt not only to the situation, but also to the individuals involved

Michael Mallows: Starting from a premise that we all have SURVIVAL as a core purpose, many 'leaders' have core purpose which are defensive, even destructive.

Don Williams: If we do not adapt to the individuals then, as a Trainer, I would not meet my objective - to train!

Steve Gorton: Lesley's comment - leaders to practice observation/listening - thought what underpins that behaviour at a "lower" logical level?

Hugh Todd: I feel the notion of the followers is important - I'm not being flippant here. Leaders need to somehow communicate their direction to others, and to do this really well - through emotion, demonstrating, encouraging, bringing ideas to life, helping others to enjoy the journey or value the end etc.

Michael Mallows: Hugh, the environment - including other people (speakers) which impacts on our skills, beliefs, values, identity, relationship, spirit

Michael Mallows: That is, we are influenced, if not shaped and moulded by what is going on around us

Lesley Tully: Thanks Michael - I think that's what I was trying to say - we need to be tuned in to ourselves and be prepared to examine our core purpose

Michael Mallows: Thus we observe, listening because people and things register on our senses and we want to maintain or change those things or people

Steve Gorton: Before examining the core purpose - do the work to become aware and understand it - can do this via NLP for own personal development - executive coaching (though depends on model used) - read books such as Heart Aroused by David Whyte etc

Michael Mallows: SG, I'm often intrigued when people attend training with no expectation of having to do much (or anything) beyond the training room

Michael Mallows: I often 'break up' training - non consecutive days - and require that people apply the techniques and principles so that, on the next stage, we can explore what did or didn't 'work: this encourages responsibility ion such a way that many become 'leaders' because they apply techniques etc. and are seen as role models to their colleagues / managers etc

Mike Lancaster: The leader/manager must ensure their staff are given chance to apply their new found knowledge

Lesley Tully: Engaging people in the learning experience is key - the trainer/facilitator/coach is not giving a performance!

Michael Holland: I also find that that is important. A lot of learning comes through critical reflection on actions

Michael Mallows: Oh, Lesley!

Stephanie Phillips: We're coming towards the end of today's workshop 'slot' - does anyone have final comments or questions to put to Michael whilst he's still here?

Lesley Tully: MikeH - and having someone with whom one can have ongoing dialogue after the event

Mike Lancaster: As part of the training requirement it is hugely important that the needs of the person/business are identified to allow application at a later stage

Michael Mallows: On which, I'd be happy if anyone wants to e-mail me

Michael Holland: Where can I find out more about LEAD Listen Energy Assertiveness Delegation?

Michael Mallows: Michael, from me, certainly

Stephanie Phillips: Can I thank Michael for offering to run this session. Click on his name to the right to see his email address.

Don Williams: Thank you, although I never contributed much it was a good learning experience and had a lot of thought provoking ideas.

Michael Mallows: I have enjoyed this (although my typing speed could be much improved!)

Stephanie Phillips: We'll put up the transcript of this session either later this afternoon or tomorrow morning, on the Workshops page.

Michael Mallows: Thank you every body for a stimulating discussion

Stephanie Phillips: Thanks everyone - hope to meet you again soon here!

Lesley Tully: LT - thanks would love to talk with you more Michael - perhaps we can correspond through email

Michael Holland: Thank you Michael. I've got lots to think about

Michael Mallows: Lesley, yes, of course. MH - thank you (me too!)

Michael Mallows: Stephanie, many thanks - I'd like to do it again!